How to Use Storytelling to Inspire Readers and Sell More Books - BM535

Why do some authors instantly capture attention while others struggle to be remembered?

The answer isn't better marketing. It's better storytelling.

In this episode, writing coach and Writer's Craft Summit founder Kevin Johns reveals why storytelling is one of the most overlooked book marketing tools. Whether you write fiction or nonfiction, the ability to create emotional connection can turn readers into loyal fans and clients.

You'll discover why facts alone rarely inspire action, how authentic stories build trust in an AI-driven world, and why every memorable book revolves around one thing: transformation.

If you want readers to remember your message long after they've finished your book, don't miss this conversation.

In this episode, you'll discover:

•  Why emotion—not information—is what readers remember. 
•  How nonfiction authors can use storytelling without writing a memoir. 
•  The secret to building trust by sharing authentic stories while protecting your privacy. 
•  Why every great book and marketing message is built around transformation. 
•  How understanding your audience's expectations leads to stronger reviews and more book sales. 
•  The storytelling mistake that weakens many authors' marketing without them realizing it. 
•  Simple ways to make your ideas more memorable, persuasive, and shareable. 

If you've ever wondered why some books spread by word of mouth while others disappear, this episode will change how you think about storytelling—and your marketing.

Here's how to connect with Kevin:

Download Kevin's free listener gift: The Busy Writer Method

Website: https://www.kevintjohns.com

 The Writing Coach podcast: https://www.kevintjohns.com/thewritingcoach/ 

Facebook 

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Amazon Author Central

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Transcript

Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Kevin Johns. Kevin is an author, writing coach, and storyteller who spent more than a decade helping hundreds of fiction authors create stronger, more compelling stories. He's the founder of the Writer's Craft Summit and the host of the Writing Coach Podcast, where he's interviewed authors and industry experts in more than 200 episodes. What makes Kevin's approach so refreshing is his love of great storytelling in all its forms. He's just as happy discussing Virginia Woolf as as he is talking about the Amazing Spider Man. That blend of literary depth and pop culture gives him a unique perspective on what makes stories connect with readers.

Susan Friedmann [00:01:10]:
And before becoming a writing coach, Kevin grew up devouring comic books, watching horror movies, and playing guitar in punk rock bands. Kevin, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you back to the show. Thank you for being this week's guest, expert and mentor.

Kevin Johns [00:01:30]:
I'm thrilled to be here, Susan, and

Susan Friedmann [00:01:33]:
it was only a few days ago where you interviewed me on your great podcast and we had so much fun together and I know we're going to have some more fun here. So let's dig deeper into this whole area of storytelling, which, knowing that I am not necessarily the greatest storyteller and many nonfiction authors tend not to be, however many do, let's look at this, because what I found, and as I said I fall into this, that many nonfiction authors believe perhaps that facts and expertise and even credentials are enough. But why do stories make ideas so much more memorable?

Kevin Johns [00:02:21]:
My primary target audience for the clients I work with is largely fiction authors. I do coach nonfiction authors as well, but the majority of my folks are the fiction folks, and something we talk about with them all the time, is emotions. Emotions are the medium that the fiction author is working in which we are digging into our own emotional memories or experiences, imagination, and then we're translating that or attempting to translate that onto the page in a way that evokes specific emotions in the reader. And I bring this up because emotions are what allow people to make decisions. We love to think of ourselves as fact based and putting our trust in authority figures and people with PhDs and these sorts of things. But the reality is most human decisions are made based on emotions, and the best way to evoke emotions is to tell stories. So if you're a nonfiction author trying to teach someone how to do something or convince them of an argument or marketing a book. Especially marketing a book.

Kevin Johns [00:03:39]:
Most purchases are emotional decisions. And so you absolutely want to get that storytelling into your communication on all platforms in terms of. In your book, but also in your marketing.

Susan Friedmann [00:03:52]:
Yeah, and that's so true, because we remember people, you know, in sales talk about people buy based on emotion and then justify it with logic. Yes, you're absolutely right. But. But somehow, and I know, because I fall into this trap, it's like, okay, well, how do I even bring a story into talking about something that's factual? I mean, I'm very good at giving you tips and ideas and ways to do things, but not necessarily as good about how do I weave that story and those emotions and that people start feeling it rather than sort of just thinking about it. What advice would you give somebody like me?

Kevin Johns [00:04:45]:
Well, when I work with nonfiction authors who are coming in with a ton of expertise and a ton of tips and these sorts of things, I'm always encouraging them to bring themselves into it. Whether you're teaching via podcast or teaching to a client, Susan, or how can you bring your life experiences to that discussion? When you're giving seven tips, is there one of them that comes from your own personal experience? Is there, even better, a mistake you made at some point in the past that you can tell people about, because it's great to be able to say, go do this, this, and this, but it's even better to say, go do this, this, and this, because I did the other thing and it went wrong. And so I've learned a lesson that you can now execute on really be aware of your own learning process. And as with most adults, most of the learning we do at this point in our lives is making mistakes. Right. We're not in classrooms anymore. We're in the real world trying things. And sometimes things work, but a lot of times they don't, particularly in the world of marketing and book marketing.

Kevin Johns [00:05:53]:
And so monitor your own experiences and then weave them into the facts and information and techniques that you share with with your listeners or with your clients or via a book.

Susan Friedmann [00:06:06]:
Yeah. And over the years, I've got braver about doing that. And listeners will tell you that sometimes, you know, I'm saying things that I never even thought that I would share publicly, but it's like, yeah, it's that human side of it. And I know now that in this day and age, we're so into authenticity and trust, and. And that comes from revealing some things about yourself, as you said, whether it's something that worked or whether something didn't work, because we don't go through life with things only just working.

Kevin Johns [00:06:48]:
And I totally agree with you that perhaps more than ever, at least in recent times, the advent of AI has forced marketers and authors and podcasters to be a little more real, to maybe get on camera a little more or get your voice on a podcast a little bit more. Because now people look at a blog post and they go, did this person write this blog post or did an AI write it? Whereas something like this, a real human conversation that we're having, I suppose even AI could fake this, you know, before too long. But at least for now, I think people are looking for an authentic experience. People are starting to spot the telltale signs of an AI written social media post or article or whatever it is, and they're looking for human connection, human voices, real stories. Which kind of brings us back to what we were kicking things off with here. Something I would say, though, is we do not have to lay ourselves bare. I think sometimes people hear that sort of thing and they go, oh, I need to be 1000% transparent. No, we as, let's not say influencers, but as people in the public sphere.

Kevin Johns [00:08:06]:
Anyone who's written a book, published a book, published a podcast, these sorts of things were existing in the public sphere. And we get to decide which parts of ourselves we share with our audience. And, and I encourage folks to share something authentic. You read my bio about how I love both Virginia Woolf and comic books. I think that says something about who I am. But that doesn't mean I need to tell everyone that I'm allergic to blueberries. Oh, I haven't been transparent about my allergies or whatever. We get to construct an authentic version of ourselves that we then use to communicate our marketing messages to move our books.

Susan Friedmann [00:08:49]:
Going along with that is what makes a story interesting versus you think, oh, I don't have any interesting stories to tell. How do we sort of get over that? Because you can make something interesting.

Kevin Johns [00:09:08]:
I'll give you the secret. There's actually a one word answer to that. And it's changed. What makes a story meaningful and impactful is change. This is why when our kids come home from school and we say, how was school today? And they say, oh, we had a math test. And then we went outside to play and then, oh, it was really great. We got an ice cream in the afternoon and then I tripped and fell in a puddle on my way home. That's kind of a story, but not an impactful one and not A meaningful one, because the child telling that story was the same person at the beginning of it as they were at the end.

Kevin Johns [00:09:46]:
And this is why sometimes you can read a novel and you can read a hundred pages and then put it down and go, did anything happen in the last six chapters? The reason that happens is because the author did not effectively communicate a major change in each scene or chapter in the book. So whenever you're thinking about a story, say to yourself, what is the starting polarity? If you're telling a story about yourself, what state was I in at the beginning? Was I good? Was I super good? Was I bad? Was I very bad? And then by the end of the story, you want to be in an opposite polarity. So if we start super bad, we want to end super good. Or if we start kind of happy, we probably want to end sad. That's what makes a story effective. It's a message that communicates change happens. And I'm fairly convinced the earliest storytelling was likely an effort to calm people about changing seasons. I think when a young child sees the leaves fall off the trees for the first time and the the lake frees over, a parent needs to be able to explain to them this is the changing of the seasons.

Kevin Johns [00:11:06]:
And I think probably they learned ways to tell that story in an engaging manner or a metaphorical manner or a symbolic manner. But at the end of the day, all stories are a way of communicating to people that things change. And in our marketing, we're normally telling a story about a positive change. Hey, you don't know how to do something. I've got a book that's going to teach you how to do it. Or, hey, you're bored and you love vampires. I've got a vampire book for you that by the time you're done reading it, you're going to be the furthest thing from bored on earth. And so change, change, change is always what you want to be thinking about in your storytelling.

Susan Friedmann [00:11:46]:
I love that because, yes, in marketing, and when you're looking at copywriting, for instance, you're looking at a transformation, which is that change, as you say, you're going from, let's say, a situation where things aren't working for you. Well, let me give you the formula to how that will transform you to the state you would rather be in, which is successful, abundant, attract things into your life. So that transformation, I think that's key. You're absolutely right. Going from one state into a better state, or you don't necessarily want to go from a better state into A worse state. But story, when you watch a movie, takes you often on this roller coaster. The best movies do, because they're telling that story of how you're doing really well, and all of a sudden something bad happens, and then you meet somebody who's going to tell you how to change your routes and make it your life even better. So, yeah, was that story arc? Isn't that part of Joseph Campbell's story arc? Or did I butch that up a bit?

Kevin Johns [00:13:02]:
That is the hero's journey, or the monomyth, as Campbell called it. Someone is in a state of uncomfortableness. They're living in society, but something doesn't quite feel right. They feel like there's something out there, bigger for them, and they go out and they face obstacles. They eventually learn how to overcome those obstacles, and then they return back to society with new skills developed via that experience and thus better able to contribute to their community. And so that's the hero's journey, and that's the transformation that many stories are telling. Something interesting, though, is it's not always the character in the story who is changing. Sometimes it's the world.

Kevin Johns [00:13:46]:
And in the sphere of marketing, this might be an even better way to think about storytelling. I use this example a lot for people writing detective fiction. We mentioned Spider man for superheroes, these sorts of things. Spider man doesn't really change over the course of an adventure. What happens is the world is in a state of status quo, and then some sort of villain throws it into a state of chaos. It's then the superhero's job to return the world to the status quo. In those sorts of stories, it's not the hero changing, it's the world around them. And as a marketer, what a great way to be able to say, hey, are things not right in your life? Did they used to be better? I've got a book that's going to help get you back to how you used to feel.

Kevin Johns [00:14:42]:
Young, healthy, abundant, as you said, that sort of thing. So change is not always about people. Sometimes it's about changing situations.

Susan Friedmann [00:14:52]:
That's powerful. And thank you for taking us through the hero's journey in a much more eloquent way than I did.

Kevin Johns [00:15:00]:
Well, I live this stuff every day.

Susan Friedmann [00:15:03]:
I know I obviously don't.

Kevin Johns [00:15:06]:
I think you probably do, just with different terminology, right? I mean, that's the amazing thing about the monomyth and Campbell's argument is that, I mean, his application of it was folk tales. He was an anthropologist studying a bunch of folktales, and he said, this is the core of all the stories being told. And then that information was adapted by Hollywood and Christopher Vogler kind of modernized the language around it in the 80s. And, you know, it was largely popularized by. Well, there was a BBC documentary in the 80s on Campbell. But anyway, the point being, this is the core of many stories, but it's also the core of life experiences. You know, I mean, that's the whole point. We want to learn how to play guitar, and at first it's really hard.

Kevin Johns [00:15:55]:
And if we're going to persevere and learn how to play guitar, we're going to face a bunch of obstacles along the way. But if we persevere through the difficulties and get to that place where we are happy with how we are able to play guitar, we're going to be able to entertain our family and our friends and better contribute. So whether it's book marketing or learning an instrument or telling a story, it's so fascinating how again, it's all about things are one way. Things get bad for a while and if you stick it out, they're going to get good again. Or if you take action. In the world of marketing, we never want people just sticking it out. What we want is people taking action. And normally that means buying our book.

Kevin Johns [00:16:35]:
But buying our book can be the first step towards a healthy lifestyle or changing a diet or finding a romantic partner or whatever it is we are teaching them. It's the action that makes the difference.

Susan Friedmann [00:16:48]:
Yeah, those are definitely my words coming out of your mouth. That whole idea of persevering marketing, as we all know, is a long game. And unfortunately, far too many authors give up, whether they're fiction or nonfiction. It's like, oh, nobody's interested. It's not working. I tried this, it didn't work. Or they try something new, or there's this shiny object that they want to try because it worked for somebody else. But at the end of the day, it's sticking with something that you know is right and persevering with it.

Susan Friedmann [00:17:27]:
Sometimes it takes years, unfortunately.

Kevin Johns [00:17:31]:
You and I talked about this on my podcast. Yes. Of like every overnight success you know has been doing it for like 15 years.

Susan Friedmann [00:17:39]:
Yes. I had a mentor who said that an overnight success takes 15 years. Yeah, let's stick it out.

Kevin Johns [00:17:47]:
I resonate with that because like you said in the intro, I've been working with authors for over a decade now. Maybe a couple of years, I'll be pushing that 15 year mark and I kind of feel like I'm starting to get it now. You know, I've done hundreds of authors. I've worked on dozens of books. But these things aren't easy and they take time. And if you really want to be the best of the best, that does not happen overnight. And I think doesn't many book marketers want to be the best. They want to hit the top 10 lists and they want to sell millions of copies or whatever that is.

Kevin Johns [00:18:23]:
But the skill sets and just the foundation that you have to put in place to get there, to be able to execute at that level, but also to have the reach and the connections and the network and the platform and all of these things take time to grow. So as you said, none of it happens overnight. It is about perseverance.

Susan Friedmann [00:18:42]:
Perseverance and as you said, your network, your planning, knowing and having that goal and doing the steps to get there. Just like taking a degree at college, I mean, there are courses that you have to take in order to reach that degree level. Let's talk about your Story Plan blueprint. I love this. It's a system and we all love systems. Talk to us a little bit about that and why it works.

Kevin Johns [00:19:13]:
Story Plan is the entry point into my world a lot of the time for fiction authors in particular, but also nonfiction authors. It's a four week program I teach which establishes the fundamentals of, let's just call it storytelling. Again, whether that's a story you're telling via nonfiction or whether that's a novel. And it's teaching people how to think about the fundamental elements of story before they start trying to write the book. So that when you do sit down to write the book or tell the story, you know that you're already functioning from a strong foundation. And what I argue is that if you do the things I teach in Story Plan, your story is going to be like a B or a B plus no matter what. Practically, it's like, is it going to be an A? Is going to be an A plus? Is it going to be mind blowing and connect with people and get turned into a Hollywood movie? Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of other factors that kind of take us from that B plus to A A outlier.

Kevin Johns [00:20:23]:
But there are fundamentals to story that we know work by this point. For over 100 years, humans have been studying story. And because Hollywood films are so darn expensive, Hollywood has really studied what works. Because if you're going to invest $300 million in a story, you really want to know that you're doing the things that we're confident people like. And that's not to say everything is a hit, right? The people make films, want them all to be a hit. But like I said, there's a lot of different elements that kind of push things over the edge for from good to spectacular. But if you have the foundation in place, you can move forward as a storyteller with confidence, knowing that the whole thing is not going to fall apart from underneath you, because you've already built that strong foundation.

Susan Friedmann [00:21:13]:
That begs the question, would you be willing to share a few of those fundamental elements that we need?

Kevin Johns [00:21:20]:
Absolutely. And it is hilarious because it ties perfectly into marketing. So you might think planning a book is so far off from marketing a book because you got to plan it, then you've got to draft it, then you've got to revise it a bunch of times, and you've got to edit it, and you got to bounce it off Beta readers. It's a very long journey, as you know, to make a book. But the very first thing we start with in story plan is genre. What type of book are you writing? Because the genre determines the expectations of your reader. And whether or not people like your book is largely going to be based on whether or not you deliver on the genre expectations that you are giving them. The promise that you're making.

Kevin Johns [00:22:10]:
If you say to them, I'm writing a vegetarian cookbook, and they open it up and there's a steak on chapter seven, you've betrayed the promise. You've said you were giving them a vegetarian cookbook and you have not delivered. And a lot of writers sit down and try to write a book without understanding what type of book it is, without knowing who that target audience is. And so we spend a lot of time in that first week looking at the type of book that the person wants to write, but also the iconography, the symbols, the different types of conventions that are the reader is going to expect if you're going to say it's that type of book. Now, some of the language I'm using here, Susan, you're going to be familiar with your audience, is going to be familiar with target audience, right? You know, the promise to your customer, all of these sorts of things. And so I recently launched my first book marketing program. All of my programs before now have been writer's craft focused, but I this year launched my first book marketing program. And guess where we start? Genre.

Susan Friedmann [00:23:20]:
Who is it for?

Kevin Johns [00:23:22]:
Exactly. So exactly where we start at the beginning is also where we start at the end, which is that process of who is this book for? It's really interesting that if we Set up the fundamentals at the beginning of the book creation process. They're baked in when it comes time to market. Because we know what type of book it is. We, we know who it's for, we know where those types of people hang out, we know the type of language that they use, the type of things they expect from this type of book. So every step of the way, genre is that touchstone where you can go back to it and say, if I'm going to call this a romantic comedy, if I'm going to call this how to start a small business book, whatever that promises that you're making, you've got to make sure you deliver on it. Because the way books get bad reviews, the way books get one star ratings on Amazon, is they don't meet the reader's expectation of what they were going to get. It's not that it's a bad book.

Kevin Johns [00:24:26]:
It's that maybe your marketing, maybe the way you presented the book, or maybe just the expectations that the customer went in with weren't met. And that's always going to happen. There's always going to be someone who for whatever reason, isn't going to like our book. But the more we can set that foundation of a promise that we're delivering on, the happier they're going to be and the more good reviews we're going to get. And of course, what are reviews? They are social proof, right? Reviews are proof that the book is good and social proof, another huge part of marketing. Right? We're not going to say send people to an Amazon page to buy our book if it has one review. We want to get those reviews up so that we can build that confidence in the purchase. And again, is that facts or is that emotion? Probably a bit of both.

Kevin Johns [00:25:23]:
Right? Oh, this book has 50 reviews and a 4.5 star rating. That gives me the emotional confidence to say, I'm going to buy it, I'm going to check it out.

Susan Friedmann [00:25:32]:
Yeah, so true. This is absolutely right on the money because these are the kinds of things I talk to my authors about. As you say, we don't call it genre, but we call it your target market. Where is your niche market? Who's your audience for this book? And what do you want the book to do for you as well? I mean, that might not necessarily be quite a question in the same way for a fiction author as a nonfiction author, but again, we could discuss all of these things till the cows come home, I'm sure. And reviews, I mean, you know, social proof, as you rightly say. I think this is a great segue, Kevin, for you to share with our listeners how they can find out more about you and the amazing programs that you offer your clients.

Kevin Johns [00:26:23]:
Well, my website is www.kevintjohns.com, and if they go to that website, there's an opt-in box for the Busy Writer method on the homepage. Or they can go to www.kevintjohns.com/busy. And what that is is a very short ebook where I outline the Busy Writer method, which is, let's say, almost a dozen techniques that I've used myself or that I've developed with my clients to carve out the time they need to write their books or to market their books. And for the listeners out there who are saying, hey, I found the time, I figured out how to get my book written, well, are you finding the time to do the marketing? I think there's a lot of people right now listening to this podcast going, oh, yeah, I know the things Susan and Kevin are talking about. I know I need to do these things, but are you doing them? And if not, the Busy Writer method might be a great return to the basics in terms of: are you time-blocking? Are you doing the things necessary to achieve your goals? And I think sometimes the techniques we use to get our books written fall off when it comes time to market them. And so get the Busy Writer method. You'll get onto my mailing list. And that's my main way of communicating with people.

Kevin Johns [00:27:44]:
I'm not the biggest social media guy. Maybe I'm just old school or whatnot. But my podcast in my email list is really how I try to communicate with folks. So that's the best way that they can get into my world and see how I teach writing and see how I teach book marketing.

Susan Friedmann [00:28:01]:
Fabulous. And storytelling. Don't forget that you're the storyteller par excellence. Yes. So, Kevin, as you know, we always have our guests leave our listeners with a golden nugget. What's yours?

Kevin Johns [00:28:16]:
I think the biggest transformative lesson that the writers I work with when it comes to book marketing is that what we are doing is not trying to convince anyone of anything. What we are trying to do is give them an offer that we truly believe will make their life better in some way. And at the end of the day, it's up to them whether they accept that offer or not. But we're not trying to manipulate them. We're not trying to convince them. We are trying to capture their attention, to capture their trust and then make an offer and that's all it is. At the end of the day. That's as simple and as complex as book marketing can get.

Susan Friedmann [00:29:02]:
I love it. In a nutshell. I love it. Thank you. And thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I knew we'd have fun together. We always do. This was another episode of fun and a lot of learning on the way.

Susan Friedmann [00:29:16]:
And listeners, you know the drill. If your book isn't selling the way you want it or expected to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, money and energy and it's time you got the return you were hoping for. So go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview helps spark some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.

Here's how to connect with Kevin:

Download Kevin's free listener gift: The Busy Writer Method

Website: https://www.kevintjohns.com

 The Writing Coach podcast: https://www.kevintjohns.com/thewritingcoach/ 

Facebook 

LinkedIn 

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Amazon Author Central

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